The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Player skill is compared under the same circumstances.

Makes no sense to compare a level 1 player to a level 20 player. It makes no sense comparing a player using consumables to other not using consumables.

"Hey that guy walks faster than the other, he is using a sweet the other isn't, he must be better!" Makes perfect sense...

We aren't comparing skill relative to other players (although I could easily argue that is what GW is supposed to be but I won't here). We are comparing skill relative to OTHER GAMES. The mere existence of things that make the game easy goes directly against the entire point of Guild Wars. There are now games that advertise time>skill that have more skill>time than Guild Wars.

And your analogy is flawed...it is more like "Hey everybody is using steroids I might as well use them because it makes everything easier". You aren't considering the integrity of the game being destroyed. Wouldn't it be easier if we had a magic wand to make steroids go away?

Originally Posted by Improvavel

PvP levels and items are normalized. PvE levels and items are normalized. Of course they were talking about something else.

So you took Anet's quotes and read "Success in Guild Wars is a direct result of player skill" and you determined that only means "levels and items are normalized"?? Any normal person reading that would deduct that "success in Guild Wars is a direct result of player skill".

Your concept of normalized is also disturbing to me. Are PvE skills and consumables also normalized to you? As long as everybody is on the same footing right? You have gone on record saying you don't care if ANYTHING including a 10 billion damage skill was added to the game because it wouldn't affect you. That is like saying we can drop a nuclear bomb on Africa because it wouldn't affect you. Your position is something a lot of people DO NOT agree with because you don't consider the consequences and you don't consider that other people paid for this game so the EXACT reasons you are arguing for would NOT be in the game.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That same quote also states it isn't exactly a MMO, it is cooperative and "Engaging in combat is always the player's choice, however; there is no player-killing in cooperative areas of the world".

No..they say it is an MMO but it has differences from MMO (hence the term CORPG that hasn't stuck due to the changing game direction to a more standard MMO). Again...you are saying that since GW is a dalmation it must not be a dog anymore. You are also splitting hairs with their statement...to claim that "your success is determined by your skill" only applies to competitive areas is ridiculous. You won't get anybody to agree with you on that. We are talking about the health of Guild Wars, not the health of PvE or PvP.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I say GW is, in one hand, a PvP competition (in the areas called PvP areas) based on skill and not on time attaining levels (you can create PvP characters that are max level) and/or equipment (you start with max armor and max damage weapons, although you have to unlock upgrades/inscriptions/runes, which new PvP'ers will contest the way require to obtain them), and, in the other hand a game that can be played alone or can be played in a cooperative way (in the areas called PvE areas), where skill is of much less importance and has very small relevance on beating the game content, given the nature of a static AI.

Again...splitting hairs. But more to your point...so static AI means that skill should have very small importance? What about Bryant's brilliant posts (that you have been mostly ignoring) about the balance of the game and the difficulty in Guild Wars being broken? Shouldn't the game require an increasing amount of skill as the game progresses and a bigger difference between hard mode and normal mode?

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The evidence given is a complaint on why PvE isn't what some people believes it should be.

People can disregard reality and complaint that the reality doesn't fit their view or they can accept reality as it is (I guess you can try to change it, but that doesn't means the reality isn't the way it was supposed to be).

In my opinion, makes much more sense to believe that game reflects the state it was supposed to be.

Or you can say the game is all wrong, Anet are pansies that created GW by mere luck and have no clue what makes a game attractive.

You choose whatever it makes you feel better.

I choose to see the reality.

The evidence given is that the game used to be much more skill focused and everything has completely changed since EoTN and perhaps earlier. The evidence given is that GW was built on the foundation of being competitive, skill>time, and an MMO (which you gave me yourself). I could pull out much more evidence if need be. Everybody knows the differences of the game compared to in the past. I see the reality, you see only what makes your personal game better as being good for the game.

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Because you and Bryant have an opinion doesn't mean you're right. What evidence?

The evidence has already piled up. See above.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

For me, it's just a sad and depressing acknowledgement that the issue of "teaching" does not matter to most. Not to say that some are not trying, but rather with the thought that if all the energy of posters in this thread was focused more on teaching stuff about the game (rather than making an argument on the situation), it'd be amazing. But it is not.

Again...this thread has long evolved from the OP. People have determined that the community mostly sucks and we are on to the "why". Some have also determined that there is almost no point in teaching if there is very little reason for people to learn (not to mention no reason to teach). Learning in Guild Wars is like a college classroom with no benefits after graduation...people can simply go out in to the world and use things that allow them to succeed without actually learning about what they are doing. It is like people being able to go into places where their knowledge isn't enough and still being able to succeed...why the need teach or learn when you can tell someone to abuse the inbalances? PvE skills, consumables, and other inbalances have led to these factors. The game is broken from the ground up which has been a major contributing factor in this whole player skill debacle, and some people are just pointing that out through this thread.

[Fril Estelin]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

People have determined that the community mostly sucks and we are on to the "why".

What you've done with this thread is changed it to the "why isn't teaching working in this environment?" to "why do people suck?". This is not the thread topic. But I guess you're going to ignore this and continue twisting the topic to suit your will, which is ok because you've got the mods support through their silence. I'm aware that by saying that I may leading this thread very close to a closed status, but I prefer this to people thinking they're still on-topic (it's actually no problem because if it was a "valid" discussion, although off-topic, you'll be able to continue in a new thread).

Your point of view on teaching carries with it a few prejudices that need to be addressed. It's not about skill, but about sharing. It's not about being good, but collaborative.

(funny thing: we've actually determined nothing at all in terms of how sucky the community is, examples of PUGs are not proof of that, and for all we know outposts could be empty because everyone is in an instance...)

Some have also determined that there is almost no point in teaching if there is very little reason for people to learn (not to mention no reason to teach).

Some have said. Not only has the point not been discussed, but it's plain wrong. KiSu prefers to call it "mentoring" because they're not taking real newbies, but if they do it, it means there's a good reason.

Learning in Guild Wars is like a college classroom with no benefits after graduation...

Wrong again: the benefit is for example to not be wipped clean in 1s in HM or in elite areas, to be able to ease the learning curve towards PvP.

why the need teach or learn when you can tell someone to abuse the inbalances?

Because it's wrong? And not as fun!

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

What you've done with this thread is changed it to the "why isn't teaching working in this environment?" to "why do people suck?".

My original posts were about why teaching probably wouldn't work (and why). I am addressing that "why people suck" is because teaching doesn't work. But I'll make a distinction on that more in a bit.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

(funny thing: we've actually determined nothing at all in terms of how sucky the community is, examples of PUGs are not proof of that, and for all we know outposts could be empty because everyone is in an instance...)

Its impossible to tell how sucky the community is, but it is possible to say that there is a very high probability they suck because they have no reason not to.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Some have said. Not only has the point not been discussed, but it's plain wrong. KiSu prefers to call it "mentoring" because they're not taking real newbies, but if they do it, it means there's a good reason.

Wrong again: the benefit is for example to not be wipped clean in 1s in HM or in elite areas, to be able to ease the learning curve towards PvP.

I'm still not convinced I'm wrong here. Look at it this way...what are we teaching people? We are most likely teaching them how to use inbalances right? I suppose if you are coming from a "teach them the mechanics and basics of the game" standpoint, then I would agree with you that teaching has some value. But after players learn those then they realize that in Guild Wars inbalance is the way to get ahead in the game and that is where my problem starts. There is no need for more personal improvement.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Because it's wrong? And not as fun!

I agree with you...the problem is we have a lot of "students" who think it is right and it is fun. They don't want to learn anymore...learning isn't fun and abusing things is to them.

[zwei2stein]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

"why isn't teaching working in this environment?"

For same reason any other teaching fails: people do not see benefits, hence, they don't care. There is not much feedback for getting slightly better either. And "copying test results" (aka, relying on others to pass you through hard spot) works.

Why listen to that elitist prick talking about effectiveness if you just don't need it as anything and everything "just works". If you can beat any nonelite normal mode PvE with party that has bar gotten by pressing F5 eight times on this page: http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/random and just randomly zergs stuff (Try it, it is actually fun!), why bother learning anything.

[Fril Estelin]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But I'll make a distinction on that more in a bit.

Well, you're wrong. KiSu shows that for PvP. What Bryant Again is doing (or may have been doing) in-game happens often.

Its impossible to tell how sucky the community is, but it is possible to say that there is a very high probability they suck because they have no reason not to.

This is a subjective probability you're talking about. It's going to be different, and unless we start a global project to get a clear picture of it, it is a urban legend (like a vapor ).

what are we teaching people?

How to improve their skill level, which is a long and complex matter to discuss.

We are most likely teaching them how to use inbalances right?

No, absolutely not. Even me, an average PvErs, knew how ursan was powerful, but I didn't want to do anything with that (even if it meant not earning the "great" rewards of DoA, etc.). Everyone can equip these imbagons, load the consumables, and they don't need any teaching, they're in superman mode.

I suppose if you are coming from a "teach them the mechanics and basics of the game" standpoint, then I would agree with you that teaching has some value.

This is exactly what I've been talking about since the OP.

But after players learn those then they realize that in Guild Wars inbalance is the way to get ahead in the game and that is where my problem starts. There is no need for more personal improvement.

Maybe, maybe not: during the learning process, your expectations change, the way you view "fun" changes, skill is a moderately addictive process (I see it with Maths teaching). Guide them towards the point where they'll have the tools to start self-teaching and you won the big prize, so to say. With skill, you can face very many situations, including move to the more challenging PvP. It's even possible (not very common?) that people will start to see imba as an abuse, with all the negativity it implies, or simply as a speed up process (skill+consets=faster).

I agree with you...the problem is we have a lot of "students" who think it is right and it is fun. They don't want to learn anymore...learning isn't fun and abusing things is to them.

It's not entirely true. Don't take it wrong, but your posts carry with them the common prejudices on teaching/education, it's a psychological negative factor. People play games to get out of RL, they don't want to see this bit annoy them in the game (because teachers suck, school is bad, education is not for me, yadayadayada -> prejudice!). Until they see the effect it can have on them, something that you'll only be able to show to these newbies when you take the time to address them in the "right way". Not an easy task, but here is the direct reward: you're "creating" new (moderately) skilled players who are going to bring new blood to the game, provide new competitors.

I know I'm an idealist and this is not going to be such a nice picture, when you start something that "big", you have to live on personal satisfaction first (like people who help in-game do) and then have patience. A lot of patience. You'll meet resistance from people who will disagree on the method, those that wants to make a point that teaching is not cool, and so on. But I believe it can really help.

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/random and just randomly zergs stuff (Try it, it is actually fun!)

EDIT: very cool!

Why people should bother learn basic Maths when they have powerful calculator to do it for them? Because you actually don't always have the calculator with you. Because it's going to teach you logical skill on how to approach problems and solve them. Because you're going to find inspiration for your work. Because it globally makes your life easier. Because it shows your future employer you have valuable skills. Because you'll be able to understand what engineers say. Etc.

[Ate of DK]

Who says the majority of all gamers is intellegent in the first place?

[qvtkc]

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

So what if the game is to easy for some of you, make it harder by trying to play through using only 4 skills instead of 8. Don't use all the new skills and consumables, if you are that good you won't need them.

It's not my job as a player to provide challenge. It's the job of the game.

And yes, playing with 4 skills instead of 8 can be fun if you want to test if you can do it. But you should be able to try to play as well as you can and the game should still challenge you.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Originally Posted by qvtkc

It's not my job as a player to provide challenge. It's the job of the game.

And yes, playing with 4 skills instead of 8 can be fun if you want to test if you can do it. But you should be able to try to play as well as you can and the game should still challenge you.

I think after playing any game for 3+ years you will get better in spite of yourself, thus it won't be as challenging (PvE).

[CHannum]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Why people should bother learn basic Maths when they have powerful calculator to do it for them? Because you actually don't always have the calculator with you. Because it's going to teach you logical skill on how to approach problems and solve them. Because you're going to find inspiration for your work. Because it globally makes your life easier. Because it shows your future employer you have valuable skills. Because you'll be able to understand what engineers say. Etc.

Why the deliberate confabulation between a legitimate, real world problem and a meaningless one? I don't get it. My best friend is head of a math department and I have spent years working in research labs with undergrads, so, yes, I understand completely the issue that calculators have had on a generation of potentially permanently mentally crippled students. It's still not relevant, nor even if you assume it is relevant, does it support the arguments of the anti-PVE skills, anti-consumables.

There is a world, nay, multiverse of difference between the existence of calculators, as well as their readily accessible nature, and an educational system that actually went out of its way to not just permit their use, but to actively promote and require their use to the exclusion of basic math skill. I see the same thing in the biological sciences where emphasis is often placed on getting labs in AP programs to have students doing "high level" stuff (DNA extraction, basic plasmid construction, etc.) without first teaching the students the basics and, sure, they get next to nothing out of it but the administrators sure have something shiny to put on their C.V.s.

The problem, though, is not the existence of calculators and plasmid construction by high school juniors, rather an educational system that makes the same mistake as many GW players: confusing easy to achieve results with knowledge. I don't see, however, the necessary connection linking the analogy of the educational system to GW's designers, because the game itself is, if anything, the opposite. Until you reach EoTN, and until you reach what is mostly non-storyline EoTN content, you won't even have the option of the majority of these "broken crutches", and you will never be steered to them via the game itself. The game merely makes the tools available, and it is the "students" themselves that go out of their way (or not) to rely upon them without learning the basics. OTOH, if you play any of the other campaigns, you instead find an emphasis on some decidedly non-optimal skills (particularly in Prophecies) that leave you either handicapped through your ignorance or actually learning as you move outside what the game has spoonfed you, which can, of course, lead us back to the community that will promote X cookie cutter build and Y maximum loot strategy versus exploration and learning.

Not really sure what the point of all that was, but I guess it means, yes, the community does suck and people should stop blaming the game for that

[Grj]

Originally Posted by CHannum

Not really sure what the point of all that was, but I guess it means, yes, the community does suck and people should stop blaming the game for that

Good post here, what happens when these problem skills get nerfed? whats it really going to change?

Half the problems with this game is player induced and fixing a few broken PvE skills to please a small minority is'nt going to change anything.

[Master Fuhon]

It might not appear clear why game design is flawed, but some of the complaints about game design are based on it being a reflection of the population that likes a game a certain way. People are being nice by complaining about design flaws and such, but they might have bigger problems dealing with the actual people who enjoy the design, than they do when taking hero/hench out somewhere. The game has the lifespan of just about any single player game until you come into contact with an actual person. After that point, you need to meet quality people to keep you involved, a number of which probably won't exist in a high enough quantity to offset how disruptive people can be at the low end (the easy design lets the very low end be themselves without improving in any way, and forces the high end to seek out self-improvement elsewhere). With how it's designed, GW makes for a better single player game than a multiplayer one; however, a game where other people encroach on you in any way (where you are ranked) can never resemble a single player game, so it’s not appropriate to discuss it along those terms. But here's a different complaint about game design:

Given the current game mechanics, design supports gratification by a monotonous killing process. A quick kill (the kind that can be brought about by a gun) is far less likely to appear in the consciousness of human being long enough for him to develop the thinking to revert the process. A monotonous activity can fit the same criteria for never reaching consciousness after a certain amount of time doing it. Doing each of these two things enough times sets in motion a human process of trying to automate the activity, especially when there are no points when the task changes to get someone to think differently about it. If the task to kill something is arduous and painstaking, the process will pass through the consciousness of a person long enough for them to have time to think about it, possibly even considering whether the reasons for doing so are effective (like reasoning whether a quest reward is worth killing 30 of something).

For that reason, mechanics (violence included) in games can be beneficial if introduced in a manner where the players have to consider their actions and think about motives for doing so, basically giving a good reason why a game should be centered around quests/missions instead of farming. Slaughter 50 million dinosaurs quickly using a 1-2-3 skill combination is going to encourage automating the gratification process; killing a single giant powerful monster over the course of a long fight while the player hears the story of what this horrible beast has done will not do the same thing to people. Using the examples I listed earlier, the kills involved in farming are both quick and monotonous.

Going from this, an automated human process does not get experienced in the same reference as a non-automated one, it feels much quicker (which is why hours can disappear playing a game). A game itself is typically designed for acting directly on impulse, so it’s never a good trend when designers remove even more thinking from aspects of the game. The possibility of learning to respect a quality opponent gets reduced through upping the pace of PvP; suddenly that quality opponent loses in 15 minutes instead of 20, so maybe he doesn’t even register as a quality opponent. Solo play removes the other people who could potentially advise one of having poor behavior, or taking a poor action on an impulse.

Now, the internet itself removes some of the thinking that typically occurs between impulse to talk and actual speech, because it removes the element of reading a fellow human being’s nonverbal reaction from the room. Combine the monotony and the ease of farming gratification in the game, along with the fact that those types of activities are experienced at a quicker frame of reference, and you have an argument that internet games can be used as a tool to practice acting upon impulses with reduced thinking.

The game itself does not truly introduce the poor responses to impulse into the environment, but it trains people to act with less thinking on an impulse. Now, people who act on impulse most of the time trend towards being sociopaths, only because they never refine themselves emotionally towards learning what other people would consider a good response to an impulse. Game design and balance (this applies to all games, this is why competition frequently turns into violence) creates the world people complain about by introducing the mechanics that encourage impulsiveness, without a dedication towards reshaping the actions people take to resolve impulses. To me, one of the most glaring signs of what impulse-acting based design does on a daily basis is already highly visible: people who do things that are clearly wrong or against the rules, and they come out and instead demand that someone should have placed constraints to prevent them from doing the behavior. They are partially right; people need restraints placed on poor learned responses to impulses to counteract the training done by businesses to make money off them acting directly on impulses. (Don’t just take something, work and earn money to buy something).

TLDR version: Easy/monotonous games are designed to get impulsive animals to act without thinking. Harder games are designed to train animals to do better things than they were previously capable of. Designers should be fighting what's perceived as the worst of human nature, not encouraging it to profit.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

why isn't teaching working in this environment?

As far as hopes for the teaching process go, you can't teach anything specific to anyone who is running on automatic impulse response. They won't even recognize you when you try it, and if anything, when you try it you might just be viewed as an impediment to their acting on impulse and receiving gratification. The most you can do at any time with people in that state is an outright disruption in their automated process of acting on impulse; just doing any new thinking at all would be a progression from that point. For that reason, game design is really counterproductive to dealing with the low end; the mid-high end is manageable.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

We aren't comparing skill relative to other players (although I could easily argue that is what GW is supposed to be but I won't here). We are comparing skill relative to OTHER GAMES. The mere existence of things that make the game easy goes directly against the entire point of Guild Wars. There are now games that advertise time>skill that have more skill>time than Guild Wars.

RPGs are much less skillful than any FPS or RTS by their own nature.

Still skill>time is one untrue statement in any game. You can be a natural shooter, still if you practice shooting every day, you will be a much better shooter.

Similarly, if your aim is naturally bad, practicing it every day will improve it substantially.

So you took Anet's quotes and read "Success in Guild Wars is a direct result of player skill" and you determined that only means "levels and items are normalized"?? Any normal person reading that would deduct that "success in Guild Wars is a direct result of player skill".

Sure a person reading that will be believe it is just buying the game, start to do GvG and beat the best players around that have been playing for years, because hey, skill better than time.

And your analogy is flawed...it is more like "Hey everybody is using steroids I might as well use them because it makes everything easier". You aren't considering the integrity of the game being destroyed. Wouldn't it be easier if we had a magic wand to make steroids go away?

Your concept of normalized is also disturbing to me. Are PvE skills and consumables also normalized to you? As long as everybody is on the same footing right? You have gone on record saying you don't care if ANYTHING including a 10 billion damage skill was added to the game because it wouldn't affect you. That is like saying we can drop a nuclear bomb on Africa because it wouldn't affect you. Your position is something a lot of people DO NOT agree with because you don't consider the consequences and you don't consider that other people paid for this game so the EXACT reasons you are arguing for would NOT be in the game.

My friend if you can't differentiate why real world and game world is different I think you need professional help.

Comparing the death of millions of human beings to the death of monsters in game is... well I don't know what that is but it doesn't sound good.

Again...splitting hairs. But more to your point...so static AI means that skill should have very small importance? What about Bryant's brilliant posts (that you have been mostly ignoring) about the balance of the game and the difficulty in Guild Wars being broken? Shouldn't the game require an increasing amount of skill as the game progresses and a bigger difference between hard mode and normal mode?

The evidence given is that the game used to be much more skill focused and everything has completely changed since EoTN and perhaps earlier. Everybody knows the differences of the game compared to in the past. I see the reality, you see only what makes your personal game better as being good for the game.

That is subjective.

Curiously, there was no Hard mode, the mobs didn't scatter from AoE, Soul reaping gave energy for every kill, there was no minion cap, there was no armor stacking cap... Are you telling me you want those back in game?

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

wat. Text under your name is "content"?

Unless you're referring to the boost you get for upping titles in PvE skills...which is a reward for your time invested into the game. There you have it: You're playing for rewards, not for the lulz. Apparently not all rewards are without meaning, no?

Titles don't have any impact on your gameplay besides making it easier (a very, very huge problem) and - just like rare weapons - e-peen. Other than that both hold the same amount of substance.

I already told you, titles have no relation to skill. You state that yourself.

If it isn't a relation to skill it isn't an award for skill. In my view is a check list of stuff to do.

But you're still ignoring the underlying issue: there are still SOOOOOOO many multitudes of better ways of implementing methods that make it easier to get those rewards via not degrading the intelligence of the playerbase.

Again we hit the same wall.

Since you like to talk about other games, lets talk about Diablo II, a very successful game.

What was left to do after you finish the game - kill the same monsters again and again to get more powerful items to make the kill of said monsters easier.

I'm sorry, but that is what PC RPG are - you develop a character and then keep getting more levels, more items, more skills/spells/attributes to make the game easier.

Aside from that, I paid just as much as you for this game. You're just as entitled to "seeing your content" as much as I'm entitled to seeing it stay as is.

So, in my point of view everyone can see the game content. In your point of view, only some that fill some kind of criteria that isn't disclosed neither is known who is the person or group of persons that will decide that criteria.

More and more devs are encouraging you to get better at the game, and that's a good thing!!! Remember how I talked about Mass Effect not giving you the hardest difficulty achievements if you change the difficulty to anything lower even once in your gameplay? How Rock Band 2 locks you from earning achievements if you put on the cheats that make it so you can't lose? How Fallout 3 gives you less experience on a difficult setting, and more if on a harder?

So, you are telling me the only way you will accept challenges is if you get a reward for it. Yes?

What good developers are doing these days is still providing the game for those who wish to play it. But are still holding on reserve the rewards for those who actually are knowledgeable with the game.

Where is the criteria to be considered good in the game?

What ANet did wrong was kowtow those who didn't have the experience and who didn't want to be experienced. They provided content that rewarded those who were willing to go through with it and who had extensive play in the game. Then the minority of people who weren't terribly good cried and cried and cried and ANet gave them PvE skills, consumables, and other facets to make it easier.

Did they also cried and cried for Hard Mode, for AoE scatter, for Soul reaping and minion cap?

If you're an average player, you're not really going to care about those long term "rewards", you just want to play the game. That was one mistake ANet realized with Ursan: all of these changes are 1. the wrong way to appeal to the casual player and those with little time (that's what easier difficulties is for: they see the main-juice of the game, not the "goodies"), and 2. they are FAR more beneficial to those who don't want to put in the effort for those harder areas. Your defense for the imbalances in this thread are no less different than those for Ursan. If all those arguments actually held merit, if "don't like don't use" was really a solid point, Anet wouldn't have touched Ursan. Instead they did quite the opposite: they mutilated it.

I'm sorry to tell you PvE is the juice of the game. Anet don't give any "goodies" to PvE because its the main-juice of the game.

The harder difficulty is PvP.

I'm sorry to tell you, both you and I suck at the game because we play PvE. The place to show knowledge of the game is PvP.

That's how every solid game has progressed: provide with an easy mode of access and slowly progressing into more difficult gameplay, rewarding those who reach their peak - NOT with loot, not with a title, but by making all of their hard work gratifying. Developers understand the meaning of maintaining a well-defined and challenging progression. Unfortunately, ANet isn't one of those at this point.

Yes, Anet understand that too. It is you that don't understand you are stuck in easy mode, suffering from delusions of grandeur that PvE Hard Mode is the shit in relation to skill.

All we're saying is that the skill threshold has been needlessly lowered, and how this will have a lasting effect and those who wish to delve further into the game and into other parts of the game.

All I'm saying is that the threshold in lowered because you are stuck in dummie Mode, called PvE. You want to play with the big boys and prove your worth play PvP. PvE is easy mode as yourself keep saying. I just don't understand how you can keep saying that PvE is so easy and you can't understand you are stuck in GW easy mode.

[Ec]-[oMaN]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That is subjective.

Curiously, there was no Hard mode, the mobs didn't scatter from AoE, Soul reaping gave energy for every kill, there was no minion cap, there was no armor stacking cap... Are you telling me you want those back in game?

So is this though. If memory serves me right, all those changes came before NF or maybe just after. Nightfall did introduce such an abundance of powerful skills, especially in the form of AOE. You can clearly see by Anet's choices over the years which way the game has gone. It went from trying to fix bad mechanics, skills, monster movement, back to not giving a crap and letting whatever slide to make sales. I also don't understand, what are you going to seriously teach anyone in a game mode that requires such a minimal amount of skill in order to succeed? It's trivial.

If you've been reading these forums for the last 2 years you'd know the majority of players get peeved off when a skill balance hit that also effected their PVE game, it removed the comfort zone the players had; and because of their lack of creativity or understanding of how to use/make an effective bar, they screamed and screamed.

[snaek]

Originally Posted by fril estelin

What you've done with this thread is changed it to the "why isn't teaching working in this environment?" to "why do people suck?". This is not the thread topic.

actually, i mentioned a while ago that improving the game can indirectly improve player skill (aka help them learn to be better).
its easier to teach the playerbase indirectly through this method, than trying to reach out to the playerbase directly.
(that said, i still do try to help people directly when i can)
besides, understanding common mistakes is an important process of learning/teaching.

the fact is, pve skills can hinder a player's ability to learn because they rely more on the ability of their tools rather then their own skills.
although relying on tools is an important aspect of build wars, broken crap like pve skills defeats the purpose of good tool selection.

the only reason to argue against this is that "balancing" these skills/items removes player's ability to farm more easily/faster.
which is the only "good" thing about pve skills/consets, even if many ppl will call farming itself bad for the game.

take for example improvavel, who likes pve skills because he can farm hardmode casually.
does that not sound wrong? "farm" "hardmode" and "casually" in the same sentance?

i won't go as far as saying that farming is bad for gw, but i can say that pve skills will not help most people learn to become better at the game.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

What you've done with this thread is changed it to the "why isn't teaching working in this environment?" to "why do people suck?".

Why are you a teacher?

I guess you like to teach and like to see your pupils learn. Probably you are good at it too. And you get paid for doing it.

Not everyone likes to teach, not everyone is good at it and they aren't get paid.


A big misconception involving multiplayer games is that everyone is playing them for the same reasons. That is especially untrue in MMORPG or CORPG.

In multiplayer games where people battle 1vs1, their objective is to win.

In a game like GW, that isn't so clear. Also just because two people are doing the same thing it doesn't mean they will like each other or want to be friends.

But I digress.

I will only help people in game and share the few I know about the game if I like them as persons. I'm not going to kamadan and pick someone just because I like to teach them.

And then some people don't want teachers - they want to learn by themselves.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

If you've been reading these forums for the last 2 years you'd know the majority of players get peeved off when a skill balance hit that also effected their PVE game, it removed the comfort zone the players had; and because of their lack of creativity or understanding of how to use/make an effective bar, they screamed and screamed.

More.

I know personally players that have been playing this game since day 1 (I only play this game for 3 years) have prophecies bars like healing hands warriors, renewal meteor showers, healing monk bar with healing breeze and stuff like that.

Imbagons, sabway, discordway, cryway. Those things are so far from them...

And they have been playing since the "golden days" of GW. And they learned shit.

I think some people in these forums are just so above the majority of the GW population in their search for the most efficient way to kill the mobs, they lost contact with the reality of the majority of the population.

If they learned shit since then, what are you supposed to do? Make the game so hard they need to learn now what they didn't learn in 4 years?

People come to a game to have fun. If they get stuck in some place they get frustrated and stop playing.

That is why PvE is a joke (although individuals can make it bigger challenge by challenge themselves). But that doesn't make GW a joke. Because if someone laugh at GW you send them to PvP.

It went from trying to fix bad mechanics, skills, monster movement, back to not giving a crap and letting whatever slide to make sales.

It is also interesting to look at the motivations underneath some of the changes.

Why was AoE changed to cause scatter?
To fight the bots from farming, not to make the game more challenging.
If you look careful, you will see most of those changed were targeted at prophecies, where bots farmed the most, and you will still see in the present day abnormal behavior in NM from some prophecies monsters.

Why was Soul Reaping changed?
To counter GvG Necro/Rit spikes.

[snaek]

Originally Posted by improvavel

I know personally players that have been playing this game since day 1 (I only play this game for 3 years) have prophecies bars like healing hands warriors, renewal meteor showers, healing monk bar with healing breeze and stuff like that.

many people recommend new players to start in prophecies because it has a soft learning curve.
but i use the same point to recommend people not start in prophecies because the learning curve is so slow that its almost non-existent.

prophecies is one of those campaigns where you'll learn and progress very slowly unless ur very self-motivated or very resourceful.
your friends are examples of those players who are "in the dark". (not saying theres anything wrong with that)
i think factions, nightfall, and the advent of wiki helped bring people out of the dark slightly.


the situation back then was certainly different, but i still think is was better back then than it is now.

before where we had very little direction in pve and could do anything we want, we are now given direction--farming and grinding titles using the easiest and fastest means necessary.
(and yes, we still have those people who are still in the dark too)

edit: actually the direction in prophecies hinted at pvp, however there was not a "huge" emphasis on it (actually very subtle if you ask me).
many people stayed in pve, looking for things to do rather than making the switch.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

No, absolutely not. Even me, an average PvErs, knew how ursan was powerful, but I didn't want to do anything with that (even if it meant not earning the "great" rewards of DoA, etc.). Everyone can equip these imbagons, load the consumables, and they don't need any teaching, they're in superman mode.

Therein lies the problem...they don't need any teaching. They don't NEED to learn beyond the basic level because there is no need to.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It's even possible (not very common?) that people will start to see imba as an abuse, with all the negativity it implies, or simply as a speed up process (skill+consets=faster).

The only reason I am in this thread is because we have so many people with the "I should be able to do whatever I want" mindset.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I know I'm an idealist and this is not going to be such a nice picture, when you start something that "big", you have to live on personal satisfaction first (like people who help in-game do) and then have patience. A lot of patience. You'll meet resistance from people who will disagree on the method, those that wants to make a point that teaching is not cool, and so on. But I believe it can really help.

Again, I agree that it can really help at a basic level. There is another problem though...many potential teachers also see these inbalances and problems with the game and realize that the patience may not be worth the trouble. It would be much easier to direct new players to the best god mode available rather than teach them specifically how to get better at the game.

The game having these broken parts in and of itself really throws willingness to teach and willingness to learn and the skill levels of the players out of whack IMO.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

RPGs are much less skillful than any FPS or RTS by their own nature.

Well like you said...GW wasn't supposed to be your typical RPG.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Still skill>time is one untrue statement in any game. You can be a natural shooter, still if you practice shooting every day, you will be a much better shooter.

Ok...replace skill>time with "success in Guild Wars is determined by your skill". So you shouldn't have success without skill right? But you will just split hairs again.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sure a person reading that will be believe it is just buying the game, start to do GvG and beat the best players around that have been playing for years, because hey, skill better than time.

Meh...you are getting in to the definition of skill rather than facing the real problems of the game.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

My friend if you can't differentiate why real world and game world is different I think you need professional help.

Comparing the death of millions of human beings to the death of monsters in game is... well I don't know what that is but it doesn't sound good.

You completely missed my point. Essentially your position is that anybody should be able to do whatever they want in the game as long as is doesn't affect your game. I am not the selfish one here...frankly it is you and anybody who thinks like you are the real selfish ones in this thread. You don't care about the health of the game, you only care about the health of YOUR game. You don't care if a 10 billion damage or actual god mode is in the game and that right away is a big problem with your position.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That is subjective.

Curiously, there was no Hard mode, the mobs didn't scatter from AoE, Soul reaping gave energy for every kill, there was no minion cap, there was no armor stacking cap... Are you telling me you want those back in game?

That isn't subjective. Anybody who has been playing this game since the beginning should clearly be able to see the difference in philosophy in the beginning compared to the philosophy of today. And no I don't want those back in game...they were just as broken as PvE skills and consumables (among other things) are today.

Lastly, the idea that some people are throwing around "this is how the game is deal with it" doesn't add anything to the thread. First of all many people have dealt with it by leaving (the PvP community is all but dead for example). Second Anet isn't a god that magically does everything right. They have had a lot of success and should be commended for that, but their game has added a load of flaws and anybody honest with themselves should be able to see that and express it.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The only reason I am in this thread is because we have so many people with the "I should be able to do whatever I want" mindset.

Non competitive gaming like GW PvE is a nice place to have this mindset - its an escape from reality.

That is why you can have games where you torture people or trample them with cars. Its fake, not real.

Well like you said...GW wasn't supposed to be your typical RPG.

The competition portion certainly isn't. The cooperating are is a different animal.

Ok...replace skill>time with "success in Guild Wars is determined by your skill". So you shouldn't have success without skill right? But you will just split hairs again.

I guess it isn't only determined by my skill when I'm playing in a team is it?

Lets go, you and me, sue Anet for Untruthful Marketing.

Meh...you are getting in to the definition of skill rather than facing the real problems of the game.

The game has 2 areas - PvE and PvP.
In PvP skill is easily verifiable - the more skillful team wins (except in some circumstances where there are bugs or some imbalance created by patch to the game or so). Balance is important there.

In PvE you have a team that is there to "die" and another that is there to "win".

You completely missed my point. Essentially your position is that anybody should be able to do whatever they want in the game as long as is doesn't affect your game.

If it isn't affecting my game, I don't see why it should be affecting someone else game.

If it affects someone else game, its Anet job to take measure.

I can use texmod to obtain cartographer title easier, I can use texmod to show spirit radius, I can use texmod to see if someone is under 50% health, I can use texmod to equip all my characters with obsidian armor skin and tormented weapons, or some skins you've never seen

I am not the selfish one here...frankly it is you and anybody who thinks like you are the real selfish ones in this thread. You don't care about the health of the game, you only care about the health of YOUR game. You don't care if a 10 billion damage or actual god mode is in the game and that right away is a big problem with your position.

If I use a god mode that also has a weapon that deals 10 billion damage to finish all the PvE content, farm all the skins and titles I want, exactly how will this affect your game or the health of GW as a game?